Overview
The used AMD Ryzen 9800X3D and MSI MAG X870 Tomahawk WiFi motherboard we bought are closely broken and sure completely lifeless. We purchased them from the Reddit person, who posted it to r/pcmasterrace after the incident.
The person mentioned this:
“I constructed a brand new PC final night time, and I could not determine why it would not POST. When checking for bent pins, I discovered that it killed itself. :(“
The state of affairs instantly reminded us of the 7800X3D failures following its launch. Since that got here all the way down to a repair within the motherboard BIOS, different customers naturally began asking questions. When requested about BIOS, the person mentioned:
“I do not know what the BIOS rev. was as a result of it by no means labored, sadly. It has no matter BIOS it shipped with.
It burned up earlier than I ever entered the BIOS. The socket was model new once I put the chip in, no bent pins or something.
Edit: Since individuals have many theories about pins being bent, listed below are some extra images: https://imgur.com/a/b5x4BVh
The plastic is melted and I feel this deformed them. It is a hen or egg factor.
This was not watercooled and there was no water round this PC.
I do not see any stickers with the BIOS rev on it.”
The above pictures are some images the person offered. As you’ll be able to see, it’s unhealthy. However we’ve our personal proof and microscope pictures to get into as a result of the Reddit person was keen to promote us the elements.
The basis trigger final time, again with the 7800X3D, primarily got here all the way down to extreme voltage over an prolonged time period, probably along with poor inside thermal protections, and motherboard overcurrent safety (OCP) being set manner too excessive. This led to dielectric layer breakdown on the transistor stage in a runaway failure state, inflicting shorts and inside temperatures hitting the purpose of melting silicon.
In easy phrases, too massive zap drive make CPU go increase.
Finally, the problem was mounted through BIOS updates leveraging stricter controls round VSOC, as handed down from AMD to the board producers.
However this new failure seemingly isn’t the identical.
Loads of the web pointed towards some potential user-caused injury from improper set up. We had some inform us to not purchase the half as they have been frightened we’d be paying for somebody’s mistake. Whereas we actually respect the priority, it’s the viewers that places us ready to have the ability to afford to purchase out catastrophic failures like this after they occur. We view it as a part of the enterprise: If there’s an opportunity of one thing academic popping out of it, we need to be there to be taught it. Worst case, some man put in his CPU fallacious and he will get helped out, by no means makes the error once more, and all of us get some cool pictures of a loopy failure.
Finest case: You by no means know when somebody has found the subsequent huge failure that would have an effect on 1000’s of customers in an anti-consumer cascade, like Intel’s instability, and it’s essential for us to deal with all of those occasions critically and get the components earlier than they disappear into the palms of producers with motive and alternative to cover the outcomes. Third-party investigation is essential to transparency.
So, that’s why we’re OK with spending cash on one thing that unveils nothing every so often, as a result of each time it unveils one thing essential, we may help maintain an organization trustworthy. And when it doesn’t, somebody no less than acquired a bailout.
Let’s get into the injury report.
Injury Report
The underside of the 9800X3D (learn our overview) has two main burn websites with discoloration, charring, a hardened, enamel-like substance, and particular person factors of concentrated scorching the place the guidelines of the LGA socket pins have been situated. Additionally, it smells unhealthy.
The motherboard’s socket has broken areas instantly matching the sample from the underside of the CPU. The pins themselves are barely bent out of alignment and discolored, with a couple of exhibiting an intense bluing as seen on heat-treated steel. Solder from underneath the socket flowed up onto among the pins, and the mattress of plastic is scorched, showing molten. There’s additionally one pin close to the underside that’s badly bent over, with out seen burn marks. It, too, smells unhealthy.
The plastic fringe of the socket is broken in two main places. The underside left nook exhibits marring alongside a slight angle on each the left and backside borders of the socket space. Alongside the underside edge, the plastic alignment pin is clearly misshapen, showing crushed.
Transferring to the underside of the socket actuation mechanism (SAM, as AMD calls it, often known as ILM in Intel-speak), the opening within the base exhibits two factors of bodily put on accompanied by discoloration on the PCB itself. This space differs in design between the AM5 socket manufactured by Foxconn, which that is, and the opposite AM5 socket, made by Lotes. We’ll get into that later.
A ultimate signal of harm is a lacking chunk of plastic between pins 3 and 4 on the ATX 24-pin header, which we wouldn’t have anticipated.
In technical phrases, this board is f***ed up.
We haven’t noticed any injury to the again aspect of the board beneath the socket or wherever else. That features the highest a part of the SAM, which some individuals thought seemed bent within the person’s images. It isn’t bent. That will have been lighting and people customers are incorrect.
The CPU and motherboard are irreversibly and catastrophically broken.
Figuring out the entire aftermath, we want some testimony.
Different key items of first-hand testimony from the Reddit person embrace the next:
In reference to the pins, the person mentioned, “They have been positively not bent previous to putting in the CPU. The CPU is bulging the place it is burnt and the mobo socket is barely melted.”
When requested if all energy cables have been plugged in, the person replied, “Sure all the pieces was in place. I checked all connections when it would not put up and all the pieces was superb. Nothing was within the socket once I put the chip in. That was the primary time it was ever opened.
I didn’t replace BIOS previous to attempting in addition.”
That is in regards to the time we stepped in, providing to buy the components from the person for his or her full retail worth.
Speculation
Transferring on to our speculation, we thought that the reason for this failure was a lifeless quick to floor, and never an inherent flaw within the CPU or the motherboard BIOS.
We thought this might have occurred two methods and stored an open thoughts.
Choice one can be a defect within the socket or the motherboard as an entire – producers can at all times screw up. If the manufacturing facility misaligned the socket in relation to the underlying PCB, or broken the plastic encompass of the socket, then it might have led to misalignment and a brief.
Choice two is improper set up. If the person put in the CPU into the motherboard in such a manner that precipitated the outer socket injury and misalignment of the CPU in relation to the socket pins, then that might be enough to trigger a brief as effectively.
Detailed Help and Proof
It’s potential that the problem was brought on by one thing else we will’t account for, however given the proof we’ve, we consider that improper set up is the probably trigger.
Now for the main points and proof to assist our speculation.
The CPU seems to have been put in with an offset throughout the socket by ~1.01mm diagonally to the left and down on the backside edge the place the socket’s decrease information pin is. This is sufficient to trigger the pins to mate with the fallacious pads.
To find out this, Jeremy on our workforce took a measurement primarily based on changing the identified width of the information pin (1.3mm) after which pixel measuring the microscope pictures by pixel counting.
It took some time. There’s lots of pixels.
This acquired us the space between the place the CPU’s information cutout is meant to sit down versus the place the plastic is crushed on the information pin, then we transformed it to millimeters. It’s not precise, however it’s very shut, and establishes the premise of our speculation.
That is usually supported by the marred fringe of the socket on the backside left, and probably faint rounding off alongside virtually all the backside inside edge. This might additionally outcome within the backside fringe of the CPU being raised away from the socket within the Z-axis, including gentle or poor pin-to-pad contact into the combo, i.e., greater resistance.
Taking a better take a look at the underside of the CPU exhibits that it was rotated by 1.0-1.4° clockwise, relative to the socket, when the burn occurred. That is primarily based on the sample of pinpoint scorch marks left by the pins. We fastidiously inspected the burn marks on the pads the place you’ll be able to see the purpose of contact, which is clear not solely from the pure scratches brought on by contact, however by the residue surrounding the burn websites. They need to contact the pins in parallel rows, however the marks clearly present an angle. As you go alongside the pins, you see it diverging. Measuring in software program, we got here to the 1-1.4 diploma offset.
Evaluation of the burned pins within the socket exhibits that every one of them are VDDCR (core voltage) pins which are down and/or left of VSS (floor) pins. If the CPU was shifted down and left in relation to the socket, then the burned VDDCR pins would have been in touch with VSS pads on the CPU, inflicting a catastrophic quick circuit.
The truth that the highest row of pins within the backside half of the socket has no burns in any respect helps this, as these pins would have been in touch with the CPU substrate, not any pads. There’s nothing else conductive to the touch in that route till you get throughout the hole to the higher subject of pads.
That mentioned, not all VDDCR pins that have been close by to floor acquired burned. We are able to speculate on a couple of causes for this.
The skewed angle of the CPU within the Z-axis and the unknown pivot level would make the offset inconsistent throughout the 2D aircraft of pins. Additionally, it’s potential that some pads on the single-CCD 9800X3D usually are not related internally.
The marring and discoloration the place the tip of the SAM (or ILM) touches the motherboard PCB is much less conclusive proof as in comparison with the remaining.
Finest case situation, it’s simply bodily put on unrelated to the burning incident. Worst case, it’s a location the place core voltage was capable of finding one other path to floor and scorched the PCB.
Lastly, the SAM doesn’t present any indicators of harm or bending that we will detect. It’s fabricated from springy metal that readily returns to its unique state after flexing – assuming it isn’t pushed previous elastic deformation into plastic deformation, or in different phrases, made to completely bend.
We predict the realm suspected of harm within the person’s picture is an optical phantasm – a mirrored image or gentle shining by means of the highest of the case.
Via all of this, we need to make it clear – the person shouldn’t be bashed for this. This type of factor can occur to anybody, and that’s very true with newer platforms. We’re grateful that the person was keen to promote us the components to examine, as a result of we had enjoyable working by means of the diagnostic.
We’ll use it as a studying alternative.
Concern about SAM/ILM Kinds
All of this led to 1 statement that we hadn’t realized earlier than that we’d wish to briefly cowl.
Now we have a brand new concern in regards to the two totally different types of AM5 socket by Foxconn and Lotes. Analysis on this piece led us to comprehend that there are literally lots of variations between them, in ways in which ought to largely be immaterial to performance.
For instance, the Foxconn socket has stable pins and stable plastic, whereas the Lotes socket has break up pins and a extra skeletonized plastic molding.
The discoloration on the burned motherboard the place the tip of the SAM touches down raises our concern generally, even exterior the scope of this piece, as a result of the steel is available in direct contact with the PCB, instantly on high of surface-level traces.
We don’t assume that is what occurred right here, nevertheless: Repeated socket actuations might theoretically trigger the SAM to abrade by means of the masks and create a brief.
The Lotes model of the socket has the insulation sheet run throughout this complete gap, including a barrier of mechanical safety.
We aren’t saying that the Foxconn socket may have issues, simply that we wish to see extra conformity to a single type between distributors.
We took a brand-new pattern of the identical mannequin X870 Tomahawk motherboard and repeatedly opened and shut the SAM 16 instances with a CPU within the socket to see if this space of the board would present related put on or any change in any respect.
Firstly of the take a look at, we noticed some disturbance of the protecting sheet on the left, and a small spot of what seemed like adhesive on the fitting, surrounded by an especially faint discoloration. On the finish of the method, it seemed just about unchanged, and nothing just like the burned motherboard.
This pushes us to assume these spots have been subjected to warmth, or possibly a direct quick as we talked about earlier than.
Conclusion
The quick model of that is that, after trying by means of all the pieces, we expect that the results of all that is improper set up, which is one thing lots of Reddit customers have been mentioning when trying on the images on-line.
Regardless, we positively assume this story was value doing. Initially, it was lots of enjoyable to piece collectively a thriller. It additionally allowed us to probably be taught one thing main as you by no means know when some random PC builder would possibly encounter one thing like the subsequent Intel instability difficulty, the place it’d initially be perceived as person error however then proves to be an enormous, legitimate difficulty.
On this case, this difficulty doesn’t appear to be one thing for individuals to fret about, although customers ought to take note of how they’re putting in their CPUs. It’s potential {that a} state of affairs like this might have occurred for those who tried to put in the CPU with the motherboard oriented vertically. It’s essential to put the system flat to put in it correctly and to watch out with the place the guides are aligned. You can too barely wiggle the CPU a bit as soon as it’s put in, however shouldn’t do it laborious, to see if there’s one thing fallacious.
